Comments for SaticoyRoots Weblog http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com Thoughts on Farming and Sustainability in Ventura, California Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:34:26 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on How about them apples? by AJ http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/how-about-them-apples/#comment-105 AJ Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:34:26 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=165#comment-105 Well, I'm partial to the Empire and McIntosh varieties. A bit tart, but juicy and succulent! They make great pies, apple sauce and awesome cider! Well, I’m partial to the Empire and McIntosh varieties. A bit tart, but juicy and succulent! They make great pies, apple sauce and awesome cider!

]]> Comment on How about them apples? by saticoyroots http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/how-about-them-apples/#comment-104 saticoyroots Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:10:06 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=165#comment-104 Thanks AJ - I think energy costs is the one variable that has the real capacity to be a game changer. When energy costs go up and stay up the equation will be a lot different. Has consumer culture peaked? I'd like to think so, but it seems to me that is more a matter of hope than fact. We've had cooling periods before after the booms of the 50's and 80's, but in the past it has come back stronger than ever. The real question is: which apple varieties will you plant? You're the guy to turn this all around! We can grow apples, but we don't get enough chilling hours to get a consistent crop. Thanks AJ – I think energy costs is the one variable that has the real capacity to be a game changer. When energy costs go up and stay up the equation will be a lot different. Has consumer culture peaked? I’d like to think so, but it seems to me that is more a matter of hope than fact. We’ve had cooling periods before after the booms of the 50’s and 80’s, but in the past it has come back stronger than ever.

The real question is: which apple varieties will you plant? You’re the guy to turn this all around! We can grow apples, but we don’t get enough chilling hours to get a consistent crop.

]]> Comment on How about them apples? by AJ http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/how-about-them-apples/#comment-103 AJ Sat, 07 Nov 2009 15:46:32 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=165#comment-103 Good thoughtful post Chris. You're point about choice is right on and, although you seem a bit down on the strength of the local food (and everything else) returning to our way of life, I tend to be a bit more optimistic. The go-go, urban and consumer culture that's emerged over the past couple of generations relies on a lot of raw, cheap energy - delivered to us in the form of petroleum - as well as a disposable mentality. But what happens when the energy is no longer cheap? Or when mass society switches back from the disposable society to one that values thrift and conservation? I think you end up back where local food and small farms return to a more prominent position in the cultural psyche. Good thoughtful post Chris. You’re point about choice is right on and, although you seem a bit down on the strength of the local food (and everything else) returning to our way of life, I tend to be a bit more optimistic. The go-go, urban and consumer culture that’s emerged over the past couple of generations relies on a lot of raw, cheap energy – delivered to us in the form of petroleum – as well as a disposable mentality. But what happens when the energy is no longer cheap? Or when mass society switches back from the disposable society to one that values thrift and conservation? I think you end up back where local food and small farms return to a more prominent position in the cultural psyche.

]]> Comment on True Cost of Food and the True Value of Farm Labor? by saticoyroots http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/true-cost-of-food-and-the-true-value-of-farm-labor/#comment-102 saticoyroots Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:39:04 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=161#comment-102 The reality of hard physical labor, low economic returns, and a population outflow from farms to cities predates the 20th Century Industrial system by centuries if not millennia. While it is popular to blame all the ills of agriculture on Monsanto and post WWII food policy, these are trends that have been in existence for some time. For all it's faults (I concede that they are numerous) the chemical and machinery intensive industrial model has been an adaptive strategy to deal with the loss of manpower, which it in turn has helped to fuel. Yes, good farming does require the attributes you describe. And there are some people that aspire to it. You and I, for instance. But are we anywhere near the tipping point that brings about a new agrarian society? I see no proof that we are. Personally, I don't think that means sustainable ag is a failure. The movement is a grand experiment in alternative crops and practices, new distribution channels, business models, and renewed consumer relationships with their food. These are filtering into the mainstream. My forecast is that the lines between "sustainable" and "conventional" are blurring (in a good way), and we are in the early stages of an "evolutionary" shift toward a more sustainable system, rather than a "revolutionary" turn away from the past. The reality of hard physical labor, low economic returns, and a population outflow from farms to cities predates the 20th Century Industrial system by centuries if not millennia. While it is popular to blame all the ills of agriculture on Monsanto and post WWII food policy, these are trends that have been in existence for some time. For all it’s faults (I concede that they are numerous) the chemical and machinery intensive industrial model has been an adaptive strategy to deal with the loss of manpower, which it in turn has helped to fuel.

Yes, good farming does require the attributes you describe. And there are some people that aspire to it. You and I, for instance. But are we anywhere near the tipping point that brings about a new agrarian society? I see no proof that we are. Personally, I don’t think that means sustainable ag is a failure. The movement is a grand experiment in alternative crops and practices, new distribution channels, business models, and renewed consumer relationships with their food. These are filtering into the mainstream. My forecast is that the lines between “sustainable” and “conventional” are blurring (in a good way), and we are in the early stages of an “evolutionary” shift toward a more sustainable system, rather than a “revolutionary” turn away from the past.

]]> Comment on True Cost of Food and the True Value of Farm Labor? by saticoyroots http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/true-cost-of-food-and-the-true-value-of-farm-labor/#comment-101 saticoyroots Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:19:00 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=161#comment-101 MK - Your article is excellent... I remember reading it when it was posted originally a few weeks back. You make the case that you were paid both in money and knowledge, and received a good value for your efforts. This is an excellent point, and one that I happily concede. I am a fan of internship type programs; my skepticism is limited to whether there are enough young people willing to undertake agriculture as a career, internship or not. In a way, your article provides evidence in support of this (admittedly pessimistic) view. It seems clear that most of your peers did not "get" your choice. If they do not, who will? If reinventing the food system means returning 10% of the population to the farm, will they go? MK – Your article is excellent… I remember reading it when it was posted originally a few weeks back. You make the case that you were paid both in money and knowledge, and received a good value for your efforts. This is an excellent point, and one that I happily concede. I am a fan of internship type programs; my skepticism is limited to whether there are enough young people willing to undertake agriculture as a career, internship or not. In a way, your article provides evidence in support of this (admittedly pessimistic) view. It seems clear that most of your peers did not “get” your choice. If they do not, who will? If reinventing the food system means returning 10% of the population to the farm, will they go?

]]> Comment on True Cost of Food and the True Value of Farm Labor? by saticoyroots http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/true-cost-of-food-and-the-true-value-of-farm-labor/#comment-100 saticoyroots Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:19:22 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=161#comment-100 MK and Andrew: First off, Thanks to both of you for reading, which I appreciate. Please come back in a day or so, because I would like to post a more thoughtful response than time permits this morning. (The farm beckons, as I'm sure you can understand.) MK and Andrew: First off, Thanks to both of you for reading, which I appreciate. Please come back in a day or so, because I would like to post a more thoughtful response than time permits this morning. (The farm beckons, as I’m sure you can understand.)

]]> Comment on True Cost of Food and the True Value of Farm Labor? by Andrew http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/true-cost-of-food-and-the-true-value-of-farm-labor/#comment-99 Andrew Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:28:23 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=161#comment-99 Those two "truths" about agriculture certainly apply to the industrial model, but sustainable agriculture proves an exception to the rule. At the farms where I've worked, an unskilled, uneducated, and illiterate worker would have been useless. Farming - when it's done right - requires curiosity, awareness, intelligence, and sensitivity. As long as agricultural work challenges mind, body, and spirit, people will aspire to it. Those two “truths” about agriculture certainly apply to the industrial model, but sustainable agriculture proves an exception to the rule. At the farms where I’ve worked, an unskilled, uneducated, and illiterate worker would have been useless. Farming – when it’s done right – requires curiosity, awareness, intelligence, and sensitivity. As long as agricultural work challenges mind, body, and spirit, people will aspire to it.

]]> Comment on True Cost of Food and the True Value of Farm Labor? by MK http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/true-cost-of-food-and-the-true-value-of-farm-labor/#comment-98 MK Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:05:30 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=161#comment-98 I'm a young farmer who has learned everything I know from two season-long farm apprenticeships. My salaries, not including the provided housing, food, internet and phone service, were $700 per month, and $600 per month, respectively. I generally worked 50 hours a week. When you compare that to the cost of my liberal arts education, it seems like a pretty good deal. What many assessments of farm apprenticeship salaries fail to take into account is the dramatic difference between the work performed in a well-run apprenticeship (where the emphasis is on a gaining the skills and holistic perspective to one day farm on your own) and the work performed in the strawberry fields of California by farm workers who receive minimum wage. If you are interested, I've written a longer piece addressing this concern here: http://civileats.com/2009/09/18/payment-beyond-the-dollar/. Not all apprenticeship are equal, but I believe that my compensation has been more than adequate. Next season I will be farming on my own. I’m a young farmer who has learned everything I know from two season-long farm apprenticeships. My salaries, not including the provided housing, food, internet and phone service, were $700 per month, and $600 per month, respectively. I generally worked 50 hours a week. When you compare that to the cost of my liberal arts education, it seems like a pretty good deal. What many assessments of farm apprenticeship salaries fail to take into account is the dramatic difference between the work performed in a well-run apprenticeship (where the emphasis is on a gaining the skills and holistic perspective to one day farm on your own) and the work performed in the strawberry fields of California by farm workers who receive minimum wage. If you are interested, I’ve written a longer piece addressing this concern here: http://civileats.com/2009/09/18/payment-beyond-the-dollar/.

Not all apprenticeship are equal, but I believe that my compensation has been more than adequate. Next season I will be farming on my own.

]]> Comment on True Cost of Food and the True Value of Farm Labor? by AJ http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/true-cost-of-food-and-the-true-value-of-farm-labor/#comment-96 AJ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:03:48 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=161#comment-96 Chris, I would not have thought it at all! But happy to read on and discuss. Its what X'ers do... they take the grand philosophies trupheted (but never actually followed) by the Boomers and turn it into actualy living, breathing lifestyles. Glad I found your blog. Chris, I would not have thought it at all! But happy to read on and discuss. Its what X’ers do… they take the grand philosophies trupheted (but never actually followed) by the Boomers and turn it into actualy living, breathing lifestyles. Glad I found your blog.

]]> Comment on True Cost of Food and the True Value of Farm Labor? by saticoyroots http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/true-cost-of-food-and-the-true-value-of-farm-labor/#comment-95 saticoyroots Thu, 29 Oct 2009 01:20:54 +0000 http://saticoyroots.wordpress.com/?p=161#comment-95 Hey... Thanks for reading, AJ! Who'd have thought we'd be discussing sustainable agriculture (via computer no less) back in our Evanston days! Hey… Thanks for reading, AJ! Who’d have thought we’d be discussing sustainable agriculture (via computer no less) back in our Evanston days!

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